T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T O N E
PART I 1:54
INTERVIEWER: There's an image of Hollywood around the world...
INTERVIEWER: Is that uh...image - does it exist anymore?
MCKENNON: Not as much as it used to.
INTERVIEWER: All the glamour and the rest of it?
MCKENNON: I don't think it exists the same as it used to. Uh...it
was based on the star system so totally before. And now, it
is more a matter of uh...the talent, and the people and
the uh...exposure of uh...those that would like to have
INTERVIEWER: What has happened to Hollywood actors and actresses then? Ob-
viously, they're still making motion picture material for
television. Bat it's almost like a different medium, isn't it?
MCKENNON: Well, they like in a different life style - totally different
life style that they used to. It used to be they all lived in
fabulous mansions, and they had all kinds of uh...servants
and that sort of thing. Uh...and their uh...their car sta-
tus, and their...their beach home status...
MCKENNON: ...and uh...their status with the studio. It...it no longer
is a matter of...
INTERVIEWER: It's just different...
MCKENNON: ...what studio you're with. It's a matter that you're working
in this picture or that picture, but not necessarily contracted
to studio. They don't have as many contract players now as they
used to have.
INTERVIEWER: But is it that there is not the need to create as much of an
image or something with the television era as it was with
motion pictures? Because a lot of the -
MCKENNON: I don't think as much importance has been placed on their...
their star career as there used to be. Because uh...their
careers now can rise and fall with a season on television...
MCKENNON: But it rose and fell with almost their entire lifetime with the
PART II 1:42
INTERVIEWER: Some people are very cynical about uh...television as a
medium. I've heard it said that it's not entertainment-it's
uh...simply a commercial enterprise...
MCKENNON: It has a tendency to make you feel that way, and I think
that uh...more and more all the time. uh...the producers
are being made aware of this...
MCKENNON: ...that...that's why the broadcast stations are granted a
license - is to educate as well as entertain. And in many cases,
they lose sight of this fact, and they strictly entertain. And
they don't consider the masses. They consider what they like
rather than what the masses like. So, who's going to say what's
a fair rating system...?
MCKENNON: I wish somebody could create one that the people could control
rather than the few - because then it would be an indication of
what the people really want.
INTERVIEWER: You want think that they have uh...People complain about uh...
MCKENNON: No, I don't go for the violent stuff too mach. I think that's
one of the reasons I like to work cartoons - is they're a less
violent medium. And uh...it...it gives an actor an opportunity
to express himself in a way that you can't do on live action in
front of the camera.
MCKENNON: Because you can do voices, and you can do interpretations - wild
characters that you could never do otherwise, because nobody
would ever cast you for that sort of thing. Especially, they
cast you for the way you look on camera...
MCKENNON: They cast you for the way you sound on cartoons...!
PART III 2:36
INTERVIEWER: You've done a lot of uh...a lot of cartoons...
MCKENNON: Oh, yeah. I've done...
INTERVIEWER: ...through the years, and uh...you say, some Disney uh...
MCKENNON: Yeah. The uh.. well, the first one I ever did uh...was uh...
"Lady and the Tramp" - with Disney. And then uh..."Hundred and
One Dalmatians" and uh..."Mary Poppins"...
INTERVIEWER: Those are feature...
MCKENNON: ...wide varieties of characters...
INTERVIEWER: ...feature films, aren't they?
MCKENNON: That's right. And...
INTERVIEWER: A lot of the cartoons are animal characters...
MCKENNON: Oh, year. They are almost all animal characters. But now in...
in...uh..."Lady and the Tramp", for instance, I did both ani-
mal-animated characters, uh...and uh...those that were being
live-action humans - I would do their voices too.
MCKENNON: And then there's another phase of the cartooning business a lot
of people don't realize - that when Walt Disney uh...gets so
much lifelike qualities into his cartoon characters, it's
MCKENNON: ...of taking...
INTERVIEWER: What do you mean by "lifelike"...?
MCKENNON: Well, lifelike, I mean the action...
INTERVIEWER: ...speaking and the...
MCKENNON: The action is so lifelike. I mean, little...little uh...
movements - tiny movements in the fingers and the arms, in the
torso, in the running,...
MCKENNON: ...The expressions on their faces. They, in many times, are
created by an actor being called to uh...
INTERVIEWER: Sort of model...
MCKENNON: ...work on the mock set. It's not really a full set, and you
have suggestion of the...of the clothing - the wardrobe...
MCKENNON: ...that is to be worn in the actual picture. Then they
photograph you on 35 mm just exactly like they would if it were
INTERVIEWER: In order words, you are suggesting that for a lot of the
animation, the...the general way was actually to use humans
MCKENNON: Well, actually, they...
INTERVIEWER: The actor was...
MCKENNON: ...did not start this rotoscoping concept first. That came
later. The way it was normally done to being with, is that the
drawings were all made, and then the actor would sit and look at
the film. And try and get a sound of "woof", "yip", "woof", you
know "Oh, I know what you're going to do,..." you know.
MCKENNON: And you'd do it according to what that active character on the
screen would be showing you. Uh...It was so mach fun in those
days because the organist would sit there, and he'd play the
background music, you know. Then, they would uh...supposedly,
have this sound as close to "sync" as they could make it. Walt
himself used to do his own voice by looking at the screen and
having a microphone in front of him.
PART IV 2:42
INTERVIEWER: A lot of people think of you and remember you because of the
Daniel Boone series...
MCKENNON: Right. This was a series uh...
INTERVIEWER: ...which, I suppose, has probably been on television all around
MCKENNON: It has been in many, many countries...
INTERVIEWER: And you were the storekeeper...
MCKENNON: Yeah, I was old Cincinnatus, the storekeeper. And uh...I
portrayed the part of uh...a "down-easter", which means a uh...
a man who has come from the East Coast - probably northeast
coast - and has wandered down into uh...Virginia, and
eventually, over into Kentucky. And uh...he has come into this
little fort as a storekeeper. And Daniel Boone needs somebody to
run his store...
INTERVIEWER: They always say that an actor has to live the part, uh...
MCKENNON: You really do! I...I want to tell you, I...I have felt so
INTERVIEWER: You...you felt that...
MCKENNON: Oh, Uh...
INTERVIEWER: ...you were really Cincinnatus...
MCKENNON: I...I used to feel like, uh...when we'd be inside of this uh...
big sound stage - in this, we had the fort, we had uh...what we
called the green set, or uh...where you would have the trees and
the simulated hill outside the fort, et cetera. And I used to be up
there on what they called the "parapet" - and that's little kind of
a walkway inside of the actual poles of the fort. And we were being
besieged by Indians.
INTERVIEWER: By Indians...
MCKENNON: Yeah. And uh...it'd be a very scary situation. And you know. I'd
be up there uh...and I'd get in this thing. And this is what I
enjoyed so much about doing this series - is I...I've always been
interested in history anyway. And lying there on that parapet -
knowing full well that the Indians are coming over that hill, and
they're about ready to attack - I can sort of put myself in retro-
spect, and really be there ! And I'd think of the fear and the total
concern that this old guy. Cincinnatus, would have for all the
people in the that fort. After all, he's got...he's got his life
savings - he's got everything in the world inside of that store...!
He's responsible for all the munitions that are stored outside in a
little container area. And here are these Indians getting closer...
INTERVIEWER: And you felt that responsibility...
MCKENNON: Well, I really felt that ! And so, when I'd get up to do my lines, you
know, and I...I'd really be a part of the scene. I get...I...I'm
actually shaken ! I'm really worried about it. And then, suddenly, I
come out of it when I see those klieg lights...
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Sort of...
MCKENNON: ...and beaming...
INTERVIEWER: ...brings you out of it...
MCKENNON: ...down on us, you know. And it's fun to get lost that way !
Because then you really are a true, honest-to-goodness character
of that time !
INTERVIEWER: And you did that for enough - for, what - six years ?
MCKENNON: Six years, yeah.
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T T W O
PART I 2:18
INTERVIEWER: Well, you mention shoplifters, uh...Do you get to know some
of these people at all?
SENN: Yeah, there's one gal that I've arrested myself about five times
for shoplifting,...and I've gotten to know her quite well. And
she just does it for attention - strictly for attention. She can
be really good for a period of three or four months, and then
just "whacko...!" just go in and decide she needs some new clo-
thes and help herself.
INTERVIEWER: Well, do you get in conversations with a person like that?
SENN: Well, I try to counsel, you know, some of the people. Some of
the people you can, and some people you can't, because...uh
...some just don't really care about anything. And...most of
the time, if a person that does steal has a problem - especially,
if they continually steal...
SENN: ...and if you can sit down and talk with them,...or any time
they have a problem, then can call you. For instance, I have my
crime prevention hot line right here which - I am the only one
that answers it...And people that want to talk or report a
crime that's happened, but they don't walk to talk to the offi-
cer downstairs, or talk to a uniformed officer,...we can talk
on the phone. Or they can come see me, or I'll go meet them
somewhere and sit down and talk.
INTERVIEWER: Bat does it sometimes make a difference then of people's willing-
ness to talk...? I mean, you said something about people could
call you here...
INTERVIEWER: ...instead of a uniformed...
SENN: Okay. Well, for instance, you know a lot of people feel that a
uniform, you know - They just clam up. They won't talk to you...
SENN: You know, there just something different about a uniform, and
because it shows a power of authority - and a lot of people
resent authority,...or having to talk with a policeman in a
INTERVIEWER: What do you think the...the general attitude is of...of...
of younger kids?
SENN: I feel that...working with the students....that the kids
aren't so - I can talk to the kids on a first - name basis.
But still, you have the junior high kids or the high school
kids, and...when they're with their peer groups, it's
INTERVIEWER: Makes a difference...
SENN: ...and this and that. But you get them separately, or just one
or two together...
SENN: ...you know - they're nice, and will talk to you.
SENN: But a lot of that is on their home life, you know. Because a lot of
adults do not like police. Because they've had a dealing with them
in one respect or another...
SENN: ... for violation of the law. And policemen are bad - that's their
PART II 2.13
SENN: Everybody always has this misconception that female policemen don't
do the same thing as men do, you know. I've worked...
INTERVIEWER: That's not true?
SENN: That is not true! I've worked my share of graveyard shifts, and,
you know, split shifts, and double-back and no days off, and...
SENN: ...as much as the next guy. And...go to...There's no distinction
used if there's a male or female officer on duty. Two men on duty-
I'll refer to as two men, cause in my field there's no difference
between the genders. We're still the same. Okay,...if there's two
men on duty- just because one's a female, she still gets in on the
same type call. If there's a bar disturbance downtown, then we go
too. There's been many times where being the only officer on duty-
that's it...! It's just me and whoever else is on duty in the
county. They can come back me up if I need assistance. And it does
get a little hairy. You go in there, and you have these great big,
huge monster-guys, and they're just drunker than skunks, ... and
can't see three feet in front of them. And when they see you, they
see fifteen people, and you know... But still, there's enough...
INTERVIEWER: That's where the uniform is important, I should imagine...
SENN: Sometimes,...you know. If somebody is going to- or has a bad day,
and they are out to get a cop, you know, it doesn't matter if
you're,...you know,...boy, girl, infant or anything! When you've
got that cop uniform on, they'll still take it out on you.
SENN: But I think there's one advantage to being a female police officer.
And that is the fact that most men still have a little respect, and
they won't smack you as easy as they would one of the guys.
SENN: But I'll tell you one thing I've learned- I'd rather deal with ten
drunk men that one drunk woman any day of the week!
INTERVIEWER: Well, why is that...?
SENN: Because women are so unpredictable. You cannot ever predict what a
woman's going to do.
SENN: Especially, if she's agitated, you know...
SENN: Yeah. I saw a lady one time just get mad at the guy she was with
because he wouldn't buy her another drink- take off her high
heel and lay his head wide open. Yuch! Oh, they can be so vicious,
PART III 1:45
INTERVIEWER: On then job side, it would seem to uh...to the layman, that it's a
job uh...with certain dangers all the time.
INTERVIEWER: Are you ever conscious - I mean, really conscious of...of that?
SENN: Okay, I feel that we have a better chance of survival working in a
smaller department than you do for a larger department. Our
officers' assaults or officers being assaulted here is very minimal.
SENN: And I've been here over five years, and...You think, "what do
you mean being assaulted - you mean by being beat up
brutally or being struck...?" And I've been hit by a car three times
which, to me, was really terrible.
INTERVIEWER: You mean, deliberately...?
SENN: Uh-huh. And...
INTERVIEWER: You mean, someone trying to run you down...?
SENN: Yeah. Or you got to a group where there's a bunch of cars parked,
and you go to talk to them...and they decide they're going to
play games, and they grab a hold of your jacket and just punch
you, you know...Where're you going to go? You cant get your
jacket off fast enough, you know. Your reaction is, you know,...
to get away, so you don't get injured. But I've seen some of our
officers get their teeth kicked out, you know,...the rib cage
stomped in and things like that. I feel I've been fortunate.
But, you know, there's some days you make a traffic stop, and you
go up to the car, and you feel, "God, is this the last time I'm ever
going to do this again?" Because you just get a real eerie feeling,
SENN: "If I turn my back to walk back to my car, are they going to blow
INTERVIEWER: In other words, you're conscious of it, but you don't necessarily
worry about it...
SENN: It's - I never think of myself being put in hazardous situation at
the time. It's afterwards...
PART IV 1:59
INTERVIEWER: What do you think is the most difficult part about being a police
officer - or what are the most difficult things, as far as you are
concerned, as a...as a...as a job?
SENN: Okay. Being a police officer is very demanding because it has to be
"number one," you know. It ends up being number one because
you're always on the call. If they need you, they'll call you out...!
INTERVIEWER: You're on duty certain hours, and you're on call the rest...
SENN: Well, technically...technically, we're all on duty twenty-four
hours a day, you know.
SENN: Regardless, whether we put in our eight hours in and go home,
INTERVIEWER: So, it's full time...?
SENN: You know, it's very demanding. It...it curbs a lot of things that
you'd want to do because you don't feel comfortable going out for
an evening and sitting downtown in one of the...the lounges or
taverns. Because a lot of the people you deal with while you are
on duty are in there too, you know. And they look at you like,
"You're not supposed to be in here", you know. "You're differ-
ent...!" Because people forget that you're human too, and you do
the same thing they do - you go grocery shopping...
SENN: ...you know, do your laundry the same, clean house the same,
drive your car the same, and have the same bills...
INTERVIEWER: So it affects...it affects some of the social side of the...
SENN: Quite a bit.
INTERVIEWER: ...community...? So, that's part of this...uh...
SENN: It's something you have to want to do - something, you'd, you
know, be willing to give up your time to do...
SENN: ...you know. At times, I wonder, you know, out of all the other
job fields out there, why this one? You know...
INTERVIEWER: I was going to ask you that!
SENN: Why does...?
INTERVIEWER: Why...why did you, or do you, want to be a police officer,
SENN: Well. I like people. I like working with people. And uh...even-
tually, I'd like to leave and either go to a larger department or
go back to...go back to school and get a teacher degree, and
work with small children...
INTERVIEWER: In low enforcement or safety and so forth...?
SENN: Uh-huh. You know, to teach them. You know...
SENN: ...policemen...are not bad...!
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T T H R E E
A SUCCESSFUL SMALL BUSINESS
PART I 2:00
INTERVIEWER: On the matter of employer-employee relations, we read a lot and
hear a lot about uh...union problems and strikes...
THAYER: Well, I think that...probably, the...uh...speaking of it from
an employer's standpoint, the easiest thing for an employer to do
would be to join a union. Now this might seem...
INTERVIEWER: From an employer's...uh...
THAYER: From an employer's standpoint. The reason is that you have the
security of never having to worry about having employees. Uh...
you'd be meeting a...
THAYER: ...a certain criteria because the unions set the criteria for the
people that work - their salaries, their fringe benefits, and so on.
INTERVIEWER: And you...you probably have one outfit to deal with, rather than-
THAYER: That's correct. So you - From the employee standpoint, of course,
you have the problem that the employee is...is a captive to a set
THAYER: ...and his freedom is greatly reduced because of the fact that...
that his bargaining agent is someone else - it's not himself.
INTERVIEWER: He's no longer in an individual-to-employer situation...
THAYER: That is correct.
INTERVIEWER: Is it a trade-off...uh...to a certain extent? I mean, uh...
THAYER: Well, my feeling is...one of the nice things about working for a
small business which is non-union, you have a higher degree of
freedom. And that it's much easier from the employee's standpoint
...uh...to be able to negotiate one-to-one, than to work through
a shop steward, or...or a union agent that tells you what you're
going to do...
THAYER: And so, ...uh...that's one of the great advantages of a small
business- because most of them are non-union, and they have
survived in the country...
THAYER: ...and... and it's those people that are really independent that
have made this country go. But when you become a captive to any big
organization- whether it's a corporation, a union or a government-
you just absolutely lose your freedom.
PART II 2:08
INTERVIEWER: What are some of the factors that...uh...you feel, on this
one-to-one kind of basis, lead to employee satisfaction? Uh...
THAYER: Well, the main...the main thing, I think, is being identified
in...in an organization that...that you are important. And...
uh...uh...each individual...uh...uh...in a company of -
like...like, I go trough uh...every so often...and just jot
what everybody's doing, and make sure that I've got them placed
properly. It's a very informal method, but just...
INTERVIEWER: So, you know what everybody's doing...
THAYER: That's right.
INTERVIEWER: In part, what you seem to be saying is that...uh...a lot of the
job satisfaction has to do with...uh...recognation...uh...
THAYER: Right. And...and the leadership in the company.
THAYER: I mean, people have to be proud of that particular company, or
they just won't stick around.
INTERVIEWER: Loyalty or identification with the purposes of -
THAYER: You - it goes both ways. And...and one of the biggest struggles
is to make sure that...that you are aware of all the problems -
individual problems - that people are having, and sit down with
them. Like, I sat down with one lady this morning whose husband
may have to have open-heart surgery. And I spent maybe ten
minutes or fifteen minutes with her discussing the options and...
uh...the problems. And...uh...and...uh...this is her...
this is her major problem right now. So -
INTERVIEWER: Her main concern, and that, essentially, is a personal kind of
THAYER: That's right...
INTERVIEWER: ...and yet you -
THAYER: But you can do that in a small company...!
INTERVIEWER: There is this traditional image around the world - the typical suc-
cess story in America. Is that success...uh...that image...
uh...still as true today as it was, let's say, twenty or thirty
THAYER: I think, probably, more so - because it's more selective in...
in...in people's imagination in order to succeed. You really have
to - even in a small business - you have to have a broader base, a
more liberal arts education, I think, to understand, and then roll
with it. And I think that most cases in this materialistic-type-
activity economy, that we're always worrying about how much are
we going to make - and basically, you probably are going to come
out all right if you worry on that services are you providing.
PART III 2:02
INTERVIEWER: You are successful businessman. Uh...I assume you've built
your own business. What were some of the most difficult things
THAYER: Well, I think that...uh the most difficult things is...is...is
a very gradual growth. I think that the...uh...the amount of
profits that you can make in a small business are really the
blocks. And so this is probably the most limiting factor in the
growth of a free...in a small business...
THAYER: ...is...is how much funds you can generate internally.
INTERVIEWER: Sometimes you get the feeling in...in a business situation that
...uh...by force you have to grow in order to survive...
THAYER: Well, you will...
INTERVIEWER: You have to get bigger...
THAYER: Well, there's no problem on that because of fact that...uh...
the inflation factor...uh...If you just do the same amount,
why you're going to grow as far as figures are concerned.
THAYER: But I think that...that...that...fun - uh...uh...monumental
growth is just impossible in a small business - unless you want
to go out on a limb and borrow a lot of money. There's just -
with the tax structure the way it is, it's much more limiting
for a small business, because of the fact that a publicly owned
company...uh...uh...could go out and sell stock and...may not
pay any dividends at all. They don't have to pay any interest at
all on the money they borrow...
THAYER: ...or very, very...two per cent,some of them - three per cent.
This is the...the reason that you see the big corporations just
taking off like nobody's business.
THAYER: Now my feeling is that if they took the - all taxes off on the
first fifty to a hundred thousand dollars, small business would
take off a lot faster, and the big business would...would
probably do all right too.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh.It would be...uh...uh...quite a stimulus to...to -
THAYER: Well,it would broaden the base...on really...what America's
supposedly all about is, a broad base of the free enterprise
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Well,...uh...initially, or earlier, was it...uh...
THAYER: It was harder. It's easier now that it has been before...
THAYER: It's easier now, basically, to get going that it was before.
PART IV 2:17
INTERVIEWER: Sometimes people have made this observation - that...uh...
generally, in America, products that are available are sort of
crammed down the throat of the consumer. There's not the...
THAYER: Well, I don't believe that...!
INTERVIEWER ...as much...uh...
THAYER: I think that the consumer has a magnificent choice! And the only
reason, I think, you hear this is because the doesn't realize -
if he didn't have a choice, if he lived someplace where he
didn't have a choice, then he'd understand what he's got in the
U.S. So, I don't think that's a valid excuse. I really think
that here in the U.S....that the...the variety of things
that are available are magnificent! It's unbelievable! And the
reason that you hear the comments - because the person has never
been someplace where they don't have that opportunity.
THAYER: I mean...I just...I don't think that's a valid criticism.
INTERVIEWER: I...I...I think, in part, some of that come from...uh...the
fact that there are a lot of products that come from...from
outside the United States that are on the market,...and some-
times they seem to have features...
THAYER: Well, they do...!
INTERVIEWER: I'm saying that...uh...
THAYER: And that's part of the competitive system which I think is magni-
ficent. I think that that is absolutely magnificent - that the
people have that choice...
THAYER: ...in this country of either a domestic product or a foreign pro-
duct. And these foreign products are darn good, in a lot of cases.
Well, it's up to our people to compete...!
THAYER: And I think that the people are doing it to themselves when they
vote for a government...
THAYER: ...that...that is high on consumerism. But they are high on
consumerism because the...the foreign products are so damned
much better in a lot of cases...
THAYER: ...than the...than the local products. But they'll establish a
government in Washington that's a protectionist-type government,
...allow the unions to go hog wild on salaries...
THAYER: ...so that they can't possibly compete in this country.
INTERVIEWER: But in general, you think it's a very healthy thing to...
THAYER: ...damn rights...!
INTERVIEWER: ...have all these products in America...?
THAYER: Absolutely! You bet...! You go over -
INTERVIEWER: You wouldn't favor that sort of protectionism at all...uh...
THAYER: I would...I would...I would...favor an absolute free trade
throughout the world...!
THAYER: And I think it's very, very important. And I think it's help the
U.S. get off their duff...!
INTERVIEWER: So, you believe in competition...!
THAYER: It's the only way to work!
INTERVIEWER: That seems to be...uh...a basic...uh...part of the whole
private enterprise uh...
THAYER: Well, you don't have any choice if you're going to have this...the
private enterprise system - you're going to have competition...!
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T F O U R
PART I 2:41
INTERVIEWER: Cattle raising and...and beef in the U.S. is...is big business
BOB BECK: Yes, it's the largest-business then business.
INTERVIEWER: It must be a very profitable business then...
BOB BECK: Uh...not necessarily.
INTERVIEWER: It's not necessarily a...a profitable business...?
BOB BECK: At times, it's not profitable. Your production costs get - It's a
supply and demand market, and if your supply is larger than your
demand, why at times -
INTERVIEWER: So the price is fluctuating all the time...
BOB BECK: Right. It fluctuates, and it can get below production costs.
INTERVIEWER: But you never know....For instance, next year, you...you don't
know what it'll bring on the market.
BOB BECK: No, it takes technically,...it takes a year and a half from the
time you breed the cow,until you get the calf,until the calf's
BOB BECK: You've got a year, to a year and a half, tied up there...
INTERVIEWER: So, you're making an investment all the time...
BOB BECK: Right. So you're not sure.
INTERVIEWER: It sounds like it might be a very...uh...insecure kind of
existence. Wonder why it is that people want to be farmers or
BOB BECK: I think the majority of it is you like it. It's one thing...It's
a breed of people. They like it. If you don't like what you're do-
INTERVIEWER: What is there about it? You live essentially in a rural area.
Doesn't that of isolation ever bother you ?
BOB BECK: No. It's getting too crowded...
INTERVIEWER: Too crowded...!
BOB BECK: Too many people...!
INTERVIEWER: I can see that, for instance, in a city,you have...uh...restau-
rants to go to, movie theaters - all kinds of things available to
people,...a lot of conveniences which you don't have in the more
rural areas. What to people who farm, ranch, do for recreation
and relaxation, for instance...Uh...
BOB BECK: Well. I think a lot of it is if you're a livestock raiser, you...
you just...you'll go check your cows in the evening instead of go-
ing to a movie.
BOB BECK: That's as much recreation as going-driving through a...
BOB BECK: ...bunch of cows, and if you like them, why, you...you enjoy
INTERVIEWER: In terms of the way of life,...uh...to a lot of people, it
would...it would seem that it's a very hard life. It means a lot of
hard work. I mean, you have...you have a schedule-whether
you feel like it or not, you have to...uh...get out and feed
animals, and so forth. Would you regard that as one of the difficult
things about it, or is that...
BOB BECK: No...
INTERVIEWER: ...just sort of...part of it...?
BOB BECK: For me, if I had to go to a desk every morning, that'd kill me...
PART II 3:05
BOB BECK: I think...uh...for a wife, the same as a husband, they like it or
they wouldn't marry a farmer or a rancher.
BOB BECK: They'd...or else, they'd get out. That's...I think it's - it's not all
wives. Some of them are just like suburban housewives.
BOB BECK: They cook the meals, and they clean the house and that's it-take
care of the kids...
INTERVIEWER: Have you known...have you known some situations like that?
BOB BECK: Oh, yeah, I know situations like that...!
INTERVIEWER: Sharon, what...uh - Is there a problem of...uh...on the
feeling of security?
SHARON BECK: What kind of security are you talking about-financial security?
INTERVIEWER: Uh...yeah, financial security....Uh...the thing is up and
down. You don't know what the market's going to bring...uh...
for beef. You work all year, and so forth...uh...Is there any
problem of that sort?
SHARON BECK: Sure, there's the problem of security. Especially, if you've had one
or two bad years. You feel awfully insecure...
SHARON BECK: If you've borrowed money to...to buy a farm or...uh...to
operate-borrowed money to operate, and...and there's no
money coming in, you feel awfully insecure.
SHARON BECK: But you do always have...if...if you've got a fairly good
amount of your ranch paid off, you've got that to fall back on. You
always feel, you know, you can think of that as a security. If
everything else fails-if...if you can't pay for your operating
SHARON BECK: ...you can always sell your equity in your ranch. So it isn't com-
INTERVIEWER: So,...but it's not something that bothers you terribly. I mean,
that...you...it's a fact of life. It's sort of...
SHARON BECK: Something you live with, yeah...
INTERVIEWER: ...part of...uh...part of the thing. The role...uh...of the
wife in this situation is quite different than...uh...that of a
suburban housewife. You don't have much free time, do you?
SHARON BECK: No.
INTERVIEWER: Because, essentially, you work in much the same way that your...
that your husband does...
SHARON BECK: Yes, I'm usually with him.
INTERVIEWER: How do you handle uh...the whole family - life situation -
children ? You're out almost as much as...uh...as a working
mother in...uh...in the city, aren't you ?
SHARON BECK: Yes. The only difference is we're together.
INTERVIEWER: That is,...the children too...
SHARON BECK: The children too....When they're not in school...When they
were small they were with us - when they were very small, of
course, I didn't go out as much.
INTERVIEWER: Do you feel that there are advantages in growing up in this way?
SHARON BACK: Yeah, I definitely feel that there's...there's advantages. There
are disadvantages too, but I think the...uh...the advantages
far outweigh the disadvantages.
INTERVIEWER: What are some of those...uh...advantages you think the
children have ?
SHARON BECK: The advantages...?
SHARON BECK: Well,...uh...they're a lot more self-reliant. They learn to work.
Uh...they learn responsibility...
SHARON BECK: They learn a lot about life by being continually in life-uh...with
animals - and...uh...I think it makes them...uh...They
PART III 2:37
INTERVIEWER: Is there any move among ranchers or farmers to...to organize at
BOB BECK: Not... not labor-union-wise...uh...Most ranchers and farm-
ers don't want anything to do with it.
INTERVIEWER: With unions...?
BOB BECK: Because we hire...that labor that we hire, why, and the price of
our products, doesn't warrant union-paid-scale labor.
INTERVIEWER: Are there regulation of any sort that do affect the - this whole
labor area that...
BOB BECK: Well, we have our state industrial accident, and OSHA that con-
trols for accident-type thing...
BOB BECK: OSHA wrote up this set of rules...for about a tree-year-old
level,...and it expected us to go by it. And it had a lot of stupid
things that - such as, that all horses had to be tied up securely at
INTERVIEWER: That wouldn't be a very practical thing on a -
BOB BECK: No,they would possibly starve to death pretty quick...!
BOB BECK: Because a lot of the year they run out on the ranges.So that
wouldn't quite work. But they..., and they expected us to live by
it. Course, we're not a dumb people-just because we work for
INTERVIEWER: What do you think is the most difficult problem or the most dif-
ficult thing about...uh...ranching? Is it...this market- a
SHARON BECK: Yes. I think it is. I think...uh...we're...we're at the mercy of
the buyer. We don't set a price...
SHARON BECK: ...on.. our...whatever we have to sell. We go to the mar-
ketplace and say. "What will you give us..."
SHARON BECK: "...for what we raise? "
INTERVIEWER: But doesn't the government get into this? Are there any govern-
ment subsidies on cattle...
SHARON BECK: No. Never has been...
INTERVIEWER: ...raising...? But there are...there are subsidies on crops,
SHARON BECK: There was. There isn't anymore.
SHARON BECK: There's a...there's a base price. Uh...if the price goes below,
then the gover- below the certain price...
INTERVIEWER: It's guaranteed...
SHARON BECK: ...then the government will...
INTERVIEWER: ...guarantee to cover it...
SHARON BECK: ...make up the difference. But the price hasn't been that low for
a long time.
SHARON BECK: That's a subsistence price.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh...How do you feel about that...? Do you think that's a
good thing to- or was it a good thing to...
SHARON BECK: The support price...?
SHARON BECK: No. And I think that's what's wrong with the market- is...is
the...those kind of prices keeping a...a false market going. The
INTERVIEWER: There's not a natural...uh...
SHARON BECK: No...
INTERVIEWER: ...sort of pricing of-
SHARON BECK: No. If...uh...if there's too...a surplus of wheat, we should
stop raising wheat- instead of being paid not to raise wheat...!
PART IV 1:47
INTERVIEWER: Who do you sell to? You say you...you're sort of at the mercy of
the market...Can't you sell directly, for instance, to...uh...to
SHARON BECK: Well, in some cases you can. Uh...if you...if you raise your
cattle clear to market,...if you fatten cattle and raise them clear
to market- not many ranchers do that. They have a cow/calf op-
eration where they sell the calves to uh...to the feeder, or to
the...to the person that grows them out...
SHARON BECK: So, there's, say, two or three phases in...in an operation.
INTERVIEWER: Well, that's still- That wouldn't pay... .In other words, that
wouldn't make up for the difference. You could control the price
more that way, couldn't you?
SHARON BECK: Well, you'd make the profit in each phase if there were a profit.
SHARON BECK: But...uh...if you have a small outfit, you...you know,
there's - It's more economical to feed large numbers of cattle, and
so if you sell to a feeder,...uh...he buys thousands of head,
and he can feed them cheaper than we can by...uh...feeding
INTERVIEWER: Where's the biggest percentage of profit? Is it in this feed lot area,
or is it...
SHARON BECK: The least amount of time that an animal - going from...from
the time it's born to...to the consumer's table - the least amount
of time that that animal is any place, is when it's processed in the
store - broken and processed in the store for the housewife.
SHARON BECK: And that's where the largest profit is made.
INTERVIEWER: So, the profit's made by retail...essentially, by the retail
SHARON BECK: Right. Because they set their price. They buy it at a figure...a
fixed cost. They know what the cost is...They add their over-
head to it, and that's what they charge the consumer for it...
SHARON BECK: So, they know what they're getting for their - and whether they're
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T F I V E
BIG LEAGUE BASEBALL
PART I 2:18
INTERVIEWER: On the matter of careers, a lot of the jobs that people go into are
sort of lifetime careers. What about baseball? Is it a full life-
CORNUTT: It's been- uh...I mean, it's been... Baseball's been my life so
far,...you know. I mean, I know someday - could be tomorrow - that
I'm going to be out of it...
INTERVIEWER: But how long can you really expect to...to play, let's say, acti-
CORNUTT: Well, I think that - of course, me - I've set goals, and I made my
first goal, which was to make it to the big leagues. And now, my
next goal is to make it through four years...to get my pension.
And after that, everything is...
INTERVIEWER: But how many years can you expect to play professional ball...?
CORNUTT: It's...it's diff- I'm a pitcher, and it's difficult, as a pitcher
to really say how many years...because you never know whether
you're going to have a sore arm, whether it's going to go on you or
wh...what the problem may be. But uh... as a pitcher, I guess
the prime- I'm 24 years old now, and this is my sixth year- and the
prime time for a pitcher is 27 to 30.
INTERVIEWER: Well, is there any problem with a sort of felling of insecurity
CORNUTT: Yeah, there is. Especially, like I said- my first year. I discip-
lined myself, and I worked hard- and that's what got me here. And I
realize that I have to work hard to stay here. And there is the in-
INTERVIEWER: You're under contract...
CORNUTT: Right, I'm under contract. But that doesn't necessar - I mean, they
could send me down tomorrow. They could do whatever they wanted
INTERVIEWER: What does it take to play professionally...? I'm thinking about
the skill. Is it something that you just work hard to get, or is
there a natural sort of ability that...
CORNUTT: Well. there's people that have the natural ability, you know. I...
I feel like I didn't have- I mean...
INTERVIEWER: So, th - that there is, you think,...there is something natural...
a natural ability that there has-
CORNUTT: There's a natural ability...
INTERVIEWER: I mean, just working hard isn't enough...
INTERVIEWER: I mean, if-
CORNUTT: I think that's what got me here. I really do. I... I know tha-
There was bad times and then - At one time in this organization, I
was a suspect instead of a prospect. And I was told that.
PART II 1:35
INTERVIEWER: Well, what about the...on the personal side? What's the schedule
like for a...for a professional baseball player? Is it full time
around the year, or...
INTERVIEWER: ...are there some seasons...?
CORNUTT: Well, it depends. Like last winter, after the season was over, I got a
phone call from a team in Obregon, Mexico, and...they asked
me if I wanted to go down and play winter ball down there.
CORNUTT: ...I thought, well it'd be a good chance because there's a lot of
big league ball players down there, and I'll get a chance to face
big league hitting...
CORNUTT: And...so, I decided to go down there. And...I think it helped me.
INTERVIEWER: So, you did that for -
CORNUTT: Yeah. I did that for -
INTERVIEWER: How long does the season last here ?
CORNUTT: Okay. This season lasts from April...let's see, April sixth until
October second - depending on whether or not you're going to be
in the playoffs,...and then it runs till, like, October sixteenth, or
something like that.
INTERVIEWER: So, you then went to uh...Mexico...
INTERVIEWER: And then when you come back here,is there a practice period,or
a time or something...
CORNUTT: No, Well...
INTERVIEWER: ...before the season starts, or...?
CORNUTT: You're on your own...
INTERVIEWER: Well, when kids play baseball, it's kind of mostly for fun. Is it still
the same when you're a professional ?
CORNUTT: I-It's...it's always fun when you're winning, and right now, you
know, we're having our tough time, but - I mean, I still enjoy
going out every day, and running, and...throwing and-it's
b - It's been my life, you know, and that's...
INTERVIEWER: What's the main attraction, would you say...? Uh...because
you're doing exactly what you want to do...?
CORNUTT: I think that's the big thing.
PART III 2:02
INTERVIEWER: About the game...baseball itself,and professional baseball-it's a
spectator sport, obviously. People uh...pay money to come and..
INTERVIEWER: ...and watch the game. When you go in to play, how aware are
you of the spectators, or the audience, uh - all those people out
CORNUTT: I uh - I'm very aware of it, especially when the crowds are big. I
mean, like, my...my first game that I ever pitched in the big
leagues, I went into relief in Los Angeles, and there was 48,000
people there, you know...
INTERVIEWER: But, d - do yo -
CORNUTT: ...I was...I was nervous. Course that was my first time, and...
CORNUTT: ...and it just really pumps you up. It really does - the fans, and -
INTERVIEWER: So, it's kind of stage fright...thing...?
CORNUTT: I - Yeah. Almost -
INTERVIEWER: Almost like an actor...
INTERVIEWER: ...going on the stage, maybe...
CORNUTT: Really !
INTERVIEWER: Because you are performing...
INTERVIEWER: But, now, the fact that, you know, people are out there,...I was
wondering if there's any sort of...parallel between this and, let's
say the theater, where an actor goes on the stage. He knows the
people are out there, and he's there, presumably, to perform
INTERVIEWER: ...and to entertain them, or whatever....Is there any of that ? I
CORNUTT: I don't -
INTERVIEWER: ...when you go to a play -
CORNUTT: I don't believe so. Like, when I go out on the mound, and...I
know that there's...people there - I mean, a lot of people - and
the times when I'm not concentrating, you can hear those people.
But when you are concentrating, you're not...you're not think-
ing about them , you're just...
INTERVIEWER: But does the uh...does the response of the crowd really affect
you...? Uh, I mean, you get cheers, but you also get boos...
INTERVIEWER: ...I suppose. Does it affect you? Does it shake you up ? Uh...
CORNUTT: Well, it affects you when there's cheer - I mean, like, when there's
cheers, it just makes you want to do that much better. But when
there's boos, you know -
INTERVIEWER: But the response - the cheering and so forth - does have a sort...
CORNUTT: I think so...
INTERVIEWER: ...of stimulating effect...
CORNUTT: Yeah, I think it does. I think of it - As far as the whole team goes,
I think the team just gets really...going -
INTERVIEWER: But aren't fans kind of fickle ?
CORNUTT: Yeah, they are...!
PART IV 2:18
INTERVIEWER: But when you get involved in the game like this, how would you
describe the feeling ? Is it kind of...stimulating, or exciting or...
is there an emotional build-up ?
CORNUTT: I don't know - I'm a relief pitcher, and it's more exciting for
me to get in a game that we're really close in, or tied or
something like that, you know...more than hearing the fan - I
mean, I'm...I want to do so good, you know, and get a win, or
just get a save or something, you know. And it's...that's more
th - or less what I think about...
INTERVIEWER: But how about the time when you're.. you're on the sidelines
and warming up, or...you go into a warm-up? Doesn't a lot of
tension build up?
CORNUTT: It - It does, but then, once you go out there, it's...you know
and throw a couple of pitches, it's gone.
INTERVIEWER: There must be moments when you know that the outcome of the
game's going to depend on what you do...
INTERVIEWER: ...maybe, what you do next!
CORNUTT: Well, that's true. A lot of times - especially as a reliever - a
lot of times, that'll happen, you know, if you go in and shut
somebody out, or uh...if you go in and give up four runs too,
you know, you're going to be out of there.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. What about when you're on the mound, and uh...uh...
someone comes up at bat, and they have the reputation as a real
terrific hitter, or something? Does it intimidate you at all?
I mean, does -
CORNUTT: Yeah, it does. It does in away, you know, I've just - I try to
concentrate on their weakness, and usually, the catcher knows
the weakness, and we should know the weaknesses too, and -
Anybody's going to hit a good pitch. I mean, any good hitter's
going to hit a good pitch. It's the bad ones that they're going
to hit further.
INTERVIEWER: So, are there sort of good days and bad days?
CORNUTT: Oh, yeah.
INTERVIEWER: But do you know...uh...pretty well uh...I mean...
CORNUTT: Like before...?
INTERVIEWER: ...you have a game - You have a major league game coming up in
just a little while...
INTERVIEWER: ...now, this evening. Uh...Do you have any feeling about what
shape you're in, or what you're going to tonight? Or -
CORNUTT: Well, I - You...I don't, really. No. It's hard - You know, I
like, I come in mentally ready every day. And...physically, you
know, something - you might be doing something different in your
wind-up, or something like that.
CORNUTT: That's the days when you've really got battle, where there's
other days when your rhythm's right and everything, where
everything's just going right, you know.
T A P E S C R I P T: U N I T S I X
JUDGE AND THE JUVENILE COURTS
PART I 2:33
INTERVIEWER: Over the years,you have all kinds of people you are dealing
with, I guess, but, is it - in the main -hardened criminals...?
BROWNTON: In a community the size of uh...La Grande, and in the rural-
really rural area- I think that...the those who are accused
of crime - the type of people who are accused of crime - vary
a great deal from those who may be accused of crime in the
larger metro - metropolitan area.
BROWNTON: Uh...during the past twenty years,...uh...I think we've had
only two, possibly three, who have been charged with...uh...
murder, for example. Uh... and those have occurred under
circumstances that...uh...perhaps are a little different than
you'd find in the large areas. In other words, we don't have...
uh...Mafia type of...uh... organizations here. It's just an
individual who under some force of...uh... circumstances,
has...uh...committed perhaps any kind of a crime. Now,
the intentional crimes probably don't vary a great deal.That is,
those who...who will break into a building, commit burglary in
a dwelling or burglary not in a dwelling... uh...And there
are probably more burglaries committed...
BROWNTON: ...in these areas than ,perhaps, in any other one form of crime.
INTERVIEWER: What sort of people...uh...burglarize or...
BROWNTON: I would say the largest percentage of those who have committed
burglaries in these areas are young people. Many of them are
committed by young people who want to get a case of beer, or...
a few cartons of cigarettes, or...uh...some food...uh...and
things of this kind - not serious burglary. Now we've had a
number of...we've had two or three bank robberies... uh ...
uh...in this area, and those have been committed by...uh...
individuals who have had some record in the past.
BROWNTON: Now we get a certain percentage, of course, of...uh...criminals
who are recidivous. And... uh...uh...I... uh... we've had
them ourselves where I've sent...uh... someone down to the
penitentiary,...they've been out on parole a week, and they've
been caught for committing another offence.
INTERVIEWER: This is...uh...
BROWNTON: That type of individual. I think,...uh...uh...we have great
difficulty in dealing with.
PART II 3:21
BROWNTON: Many times when a child comes into Juvenile Court, he's had troub-
le with his parents. He can't communicate with his parents...uh
...His parents...uh...are almost ready to shove him out...uh
...They haven't been - and sometimes, they have shoved them out
...uh...It's beyond them. I've been convinced...uh...over
many, many years that there are some people, probably, who should
never have children. They're simply not equipped emotionally, or
educationally, or otherwise, to have children. Really, they...
they don't know how to raise children, and they produce some
pretty poor products. And...you think about this too when you get
a child in who's come in under those circumstances...
INTERVIEWER: And you realize,...possibly, that...the parties you should be
dealing with are the parents...
BROWNTON: And you do...
INTERVIEWER: ...really, more than the children...
BROWNTON: You do try to deal with, of course, these parents. Sometimes,...uh
...rather unsuccessfully....Uh...some of them are...uh...some
of them are...uh...uh...are very hostile not only toward the
children - they're hostile toward the court, to the system...uh
...and...uh....And I think...uhmm...probably the saddest cases
in all the system are found in juvenile courts. Because here there
are youngsters who have not reached the age of...uh...discretion
or good judgment,...uh...who haven't been able to...uh...uh...
who...who've not been able to...uh...meet the problems of life
as they have come to them. So, we...we...talk to them about all
of these things. I do,...uh...at least, talk to them about their
problems and about their...uh...their families and...uh...
I have always left the door...uhmm...wide open for youngsters to
come in to see me personally if...if they haven't been able to get
along - and sometimes they can't get along with the counselor...
INTERVIEWER: What do you do if you have a parent hostile toward the court? Are
there any legal recourses there...? Isn't there a legal responsi-
bility the parent has...
BROWNTON: Oh, yes. Yes, indeed...uh...Yes, indeed there are...uh....The
...uh...parents have a responsibility, of course, to support and
take care of their children. If we find that the child is being
damaged by remaining in the home - and this does happen - if he's
damaged remaining in the home, the...the parents - and...we've
had child-abuse cases. Of course, we can take the child out of the
home, not - We don't dissolve the parental...uh...relationship.
We take the child out of the home and put him in a foster home. The
hope is always to get them back with their parents as soon as we
INTERVIEWER: Could even be worse, I suppose, in some cases, than the original
conditions - uh...the foster...
BROWNTON: One...one of the problems that can be developed is that the child
may want to talk about what's going on. See? He may have problems.
If he does have, and has no place to go to discuss
them - psychologically, this is bad for the child. So, I...uh...
demanded a list of every child in foster homes under my jurisdic-
tion. And then...uh...whenever we placed someone in a foster
home, we would fix a date at that time - two months, three months
or what have you, later - for a hearing. And the child would be
brought in. I'd have a chance to talk to the child,..."How're
things going...?" Uh...Uh..."Any problems...?" Uh..."How're
you being treated...?" Find out about him. Because you don't want
these things - You don't want them to get lost, like a few people
have been in...uh...mental institutions, you know!
PART III 3:07
INTERVIEWER: Isn't it a...a bit difficult to make a decision...? Are there
any times when you're torn between uh...
BROWNTON: Yes. I think...I think in most cases...uh....If you - If you
believe that the most important moment in the life of this person
who has been convicted of a crime is when he comes before you for
sentencing, then you are going to spend time and thought in...
uh...determining what is going to be the best not only for
society, but for the person himself. Because most of these people
are not going to serve a lifetime in the penitentiary. They're
going to be back out into society sooner or later...uh....Even
some convicted murderers have come back out in society. So, you
...you have to think in terms of rehabilitation, hoping that...
uh...there will be...
BROWNTON: ...some rehabilitation.
INTERVIEWER: Does the way the individual conducts himself in court...uh...
conceivably, have any influence on...
BROWNTON: Well,...I think only as it may reflect actually what kind of an
individual he is, and what we think that, perhaps, we can do for
him. Because we've had them in there with hair...uh...streaming
down over their shoulders. We've had them in there who have been
...uh...who've not been clean about their person. We've had them
in there who have been extremely handsome individual, well-
BROWNTON: ...and I've...uh...I've seen some of these young chaps when
they first appeared on arraignment. When they come back...
BROWNTON: ...for sentencing, you wouldn't know they were the same indivi-
dual, because somebody had spruced them up for the occasion, you
see! And...uh...uh...most of them...most of them try to be
courteous to be court...uh...
INTERVIEWER: Well, isn't it possible though that...
BROWNTON: We,...of course, try not to let...uh...those outward appearances
...uh...influence...uh...the length of the sentence we are
going to give them or...uh...the type of probation we may be
going to put them on. But, for example, we had one chap who came
back from Vietnam and...and...he was...uh...he was
a drug addict. And he was one of the most pitiful chaps I have
ever seen in court. It was a sad situation. What are...in the
world...are we going to do with this young chap ?
BROWNTON: And we've had lots of problems of returning soldiers. Here you
have young chaps who've gone over and maybe spent a year...
two or three years...fighting a war. And they get hooked on
drugs - not just marijuana, but hard drugs - a lot o them. Now
they come back and...and face possibly, being thrown into the
penitentiary for things that they learned while they were...
uh...in the service...
INTERVIEWER: You realize that uh...very environment...
BROWNTON: Yes, and in any event,...uh...we did everything we could for
this boy,...uh.... We tried him on probation. We tried every-
thing, really, that we could do to try to bring him out of this thing.
He was the saddest character, He couldn't even look at you when
he was in court. He'd come in and just hang his head. He
couldn't...he couldn't look you in the face. And finally,...
uhm...he committed some more offenses, and I did have to send
him to the penitentiary.
PART IV 2:24
BROWNTON: I would say, in...uh...the juvenile court here, we handle
something...anywhere from six to eight hundred cases a year.
Uh...now, the lager portions of those we handle informally.
INTERVIEWER: What do you mean...informally ? Not by formal...uh...
BROWNTON: That's right....Uh...when...when we organized a juvenile
department, it seemed only right to us that...uh...that there'd
be a lot of cases that shouldn't require a formal hearing before the
court. Now if they've committed a serious offence, then I...then
we do...uh...have a formal hearing. Otherwise...
INTERVIEWER: Is this your discretion ?
BROWNTON: Yes - up to the judge. And...uh...we developed...uh .. I
think, something new here too, in the way of...uh...contract
agreements, so to speak, with parents,which, if they would agree
to do certain things with their children, and...conform to it,...
uh...then we could handle it under informal probation. There's
no records made of any kind...
INTERVIEWER: Hmm...sort of vest a lot of the responsibility in the parents...
BROWNTON: ...in the parents and in, of course, the Juvenile Department.
INTERVIEWER: What - How, physically, does that - ? Do you sort of sit around a
table or something, rather than the courtroom atmosphere ?
BROWNTON: We...we hold it in the courtroom. But I have always liked to sit at a
table,...have the child across from me - if we have a hearing, he's
entitled to have a lawyer present. His parents are
there,...uh...a juvenile director or counselor's there....And
we handle it ! Now in some places in the state, they don't do it this
way. They put on the robes and they sit on the bench. So when I was
hearing juvenile matters in Roseberg last summer, why,...uh - I
always like to try to follow the procedures of wherever I am. I
don't like to...I don't like to throw a bomb into the...uh...
and get everyone upset. You have clerks and...uh...reporters
and...uh...directors, and everyone that's used to doing it
this way. So I sat on the bench...for about three minutes! And
to me it was completely unsatisfactory. And I simply moved off
the bench, moved down to the counsel table in front of the child,
where I could look the child in the eye and talk to him. And I...
think this...personally,...I think this is a much, much better
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T S E V E N
BIG BUSINESS VS. SMALL BUSINESS
PART I 1:41
INTERVIEWER: I wonder if there's a difference in work attitude, in general -
working for yourself or working for a big company.
HAMLIN: Yes,...uh...Sure there's a difference. I guess that part of
it is that...that you're more...uh...conscious of time when
you work for a big company...
INTERVIEWER: What do you mean...?
HAMLIN: Well, you get the...you get this eight-to-five attitude.You
know,...and five o'clock rolls around, and you get up and go
home. And now it's your time.
HAMLIN: Uh...well, when - And I've only had...uh...limited experience
in...in a small company where, you know, you're personally
involved,...uh...I would think a person who is in business
for themselves would...would tend to...uh...uh...have to
discipline themselves to...to stop work, because...
HAMLIN: ...they're in a business...in that business and doing that
thing because they want to. Now in...in the big corporation,
you're not as much in control of...of the exact environment that
you're working in.
INTERVIEWER: There's something sort of...uh...impersonal about a big com-
pany to a lot of people...
HAMLIN: Well, it is impersonal in that...uh...uh...probably just a
small percentage of the employees know the top management. Uh...
the people that work for me,...uh...I don't think any of them
have ever met the controller of the company - who is...is their
HAMLIN: And none of them probably have ever seen the president of the
company...! So, from that sense, it's impersonal. I don't know
how you overcome that...
INTERVIEWER: Do you operate on a first-name basis...?
HAMLIN: In the company I work for,...uh...almost everybody deals on a
first-name basis. Uh...when I...when I see the president, I
call him by his first name. And everybody does it.
HAMLIN: And...it's a very informal situation...
PART II 1:53
INTERVIEWER: Well, it sounds like you're saving that there's a certain amount
of...uh...pride,...satisfaction,...in doing the job.
HAMLIN: Oh,very much so...?
INTERVIEWER: The peer pressure...
HAMLIN: Yeah, very much so...
INTERVIEWER: So that it really wouldn't make much difference, possibly,
...uh...whether the individual was in a large company or...or
a small company, if...if there's this professional level,` per-
haps....or whatever - pride in one's work or satisfaction of
doing a job...uh...in a certain way.
HAMLIN: Well, several thoughts cross my mind when you...when you say
that. One is that...uh...uh...association with the company...
uh - In a small company...uh...I think the individual would
have a...a greater sense of the company's goal. Uh...
why are they there...? Why are - What is the purpose...?
INTERVIEWER: Sort of...group spirit or something...?
HAMLIN: Yeah, but...uh - You're selling widgets...and...uh...
they...the people know exactly what the product is, and what
they're performing on and why they're performing it. You get
into a large corporation,...uh...the...the people get further
away from the end product. And they don't really see the final
product that the company is producing, necessarily.
INTERVIEWER: In that case, it's not an identification with the primary goal
of the company.
HAMLIN: That's right. That's right.
INTERVIEWER: It's a smaller...smaller view...
HAMLIN: And that's bad. I think. And that...uh...and that puts a
problem out there for the corporation. And I think the corpora-
tion I work for is aware of it...uh...We try through meet-
ings...uh...and informing through...company papers,...
uh...uh...weekly newsletters...that come around in the...
in the company - to try and...and keep people oriented to
the company and what the company's doing...
HAMLIN: ...and why it's doing it - and keep them a part of the corpora-
tion. But it's very difficult !
PART III 1:56
INTERVIEWER: How important is the whole feeling of security that one uh...
might get from a big company ? The regular paycheck and sort of
the feeling that it's a...it's a very solvent organization-there
isn't any sort of job worry. Is the economic...
INTERVIEWER: ...part of it an...an important -
HAMLIN: I think it depends upon the individual corporation. Uh....the
security varies considerably. In...uh...Seattle, where I li-
ve, the-there's Boeing,...uh...which manufactures airplanes...
HAMLIN: ...and has grown from a very small company to a huge corpora-
HAMLIN: ...and then cut their forces by something like fifty percent.
HAMLIN: Well, the security wasn't too good there for some people...
HAMLIN: ...that had quite a bit of service when they cut way back.
INTERVIEWER: Uhm...not necessarily just because it's a big company...
HAMLIN: Just because it's a big company...
HAMLIN: ...right, ah....I knew someone who worked for...uh...
General Motors, who at one point said that-concerned about
getting promotions,...because in his particular division,they-it
seemed they'd promote you to your level of incompetence, and
then fire you...!
HAMLIN: Never demoted...! Uh...
INTERVIEWER: Sort of the Peter Principle or something...
HAMLIN: Right. And they...uh...you were always afraid to accept a
promotion because that might be the one that you can't handle...
HAMLIN: ...and they'll fire you, rather then letting you go back to you old
job...! So, that problem existed in a corporation.In the one I
work in...uh...the company has never...uh...fired regular
employees,...uh...to my knowledge,since...even during the
HAMLIN: So, in the company I'm in,...uh...there is that kind of job
security. As long as you do a good job, and...and are very
conscientious and perform, you can be pretty sure that you're
going to continue to have a check. But just...large corporations
per se, I don't think that...uh...that applies. You've got to look
at each one individually.
PART IV 2:14
INTERVIEWER: Have you ever thought about being in business for yourself?
HAMLIN: Yeah! Who hasn't...
INTERVIEWER: Well, can you think of any.. uh...particular disadvantages
from your point of view now about working for a big company?
HAMLIN: Disadvantages...! That...that...that's somewhat a personal
thing, and I can't see any disadvantage to me for working...
uh...uh...in working with a large company because the com-
pany I work for has been vary good for me, and vary good to me.
HAMLIN: Uh...I think that I've-I've gotten to a level that I make...
uh...uh...a good salary. I've got...uh...I get five weeks
vacation, and there's no quarrel about me taking the vacation...
HAMLIN: Uh...I've got some benefits that have been vary helpful for...
for the family...
HAMLIN: ...in...the way of medical and so forth. I've...got a
retirement program that...uh...uh...is something I'm looking
forward to...uh - The...all of these things that go with a
large company are very nice. I haven't gotten rich - which...
HAMLIN: ...uh...you might do if you were in business for yourself
and...and successful, so...
INTERVIEWER: So, for a young person - trying to decide between going to work
for a major corporation, or...going into business for himself,
you would have the tendency of...
HAMLIN: Well, I think it depends upon the individual and their
personality and tha - and their feelings. I - if they feel
strongly about it - no, I wouldn't recommend that they go to
work for a large corporation. If they have...strong desires to
go into business for themselves. I wouldn't recommend that they
go to work for a large corporation. I think uh...if they have -
if an individual has strong desires to go into business for
themselves,...uh...they shouldn't start right off that way
either, necessarily. Uh...again, if depends upon the individual.
But it seems to me that they should start working for somebody
else that owns a small business in the same line...
HAMLIN: ...and get a better feel for the total business...
INTERVIEWER: ...a feel for it... .
HAMLIN: And maybe work for three or four years, and then branch out.
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T E I G H T
PART I 1:43
INTERVIEWER: Is the field divided in specialization-small animals, large ani-
STEPHENS: Yeah, there's a lot of division. Uh...one thing good about vet-
erinary medicine is that it's not like - a general practitioner gets
to do physicals, and gets to see a human. But we get to do
everything - like, we get to do surgery, we get to do lab work, we
get to do ...the culture for bacteriology, we get to do large
animals, we get to do small animals. And we have to know a lot,
but it's nice because there's a lot of diversity in the field, so it's...
it's not like you ever get tired of doing one thing.
INTERVIEWER: But how can you prepare yourself in all the variety of...of
animals that...that exist?
STEPHENS: Well, I think - somebody told me this when I was still in vet
thing,...it juts teaches you where to look up things. And that's
about what it comes down to. You get a...good overview of
animals, but...but as far as knowing everything there is about
them, you have to go to the books - and then,...daily.
INTERVIEWER: Someone who's going uh...to be an M.D. - uh somehow the
question of whether the person likes...people...doesn't seem
to come up very much. Is it important that the person going into
veterinary medicine like animals?
STEPHENS: I think it is. I think that...a lot of people go into veterinary
school - I mean, most of the people do like animals. Uh...because
if they wanted to...to, say, be really wealthy, and they were
just in it for the money, they wouldn't go to - be a veterinarian
either. They could go to - be an M.D. - medical school...
INTERVIEWER: But is what something a person either has or doesn't have?
Or...or, do you have to grow up with it, or what -?
STEPHENS: I think it helps to grow up with it. But that's the way I did.
It's - I think some people just...I think they just have a
compassion for animals.
PART II 1:31
INTERVIEWER: On the personal side, at what stage did you uh...make the
decision to go into veterinary medicine?
STEPHENS: I wanted to be a marine mammalogist. I guess it's a little far-
fetched, but I wanted to work with whales - be a whale doctor.
STEPHENS: And then I found out that being a marine mammalogist was - to
be a - you had to get a Ph.D. in...in...in mammalogy, and also,
it wasn't...there wasn't a big demand for it, or there wasn't
anyplace to work. So, uh... that's why I decided- I was a sopho-
more in college before I decided to be a veterinarian for sure.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-hmm. Did you ever consider at all...
STEPHENS: Being an M.-
INTERVIEWER: ...being an M.D.?
STEPHENS: ...a medical doctor...?
STEPHENS: I ... I think I gave it some thought for about six months. And
then I... thought that I would... get a lot more responsibility
this way, I mean, responsibility in the sense that I- a lot would
depend on me- I could do my own work, and... work with a lot of
INTERVIEWER: What sorts of problems have you uh...had to deal with? You've
been practicing for how long now...?
STEPHENS: I graduated in May, so - but I have only been here for two months.
STEPHENS: What sort of problems...! I've seen a lot of...
INTERVIEWER: Aren't you-
STEPHENS: ... things that I'm supposed to see once in a lifetime! And I've
seen them in two months.
STEPHENS: And it's ... it's incredible, because it's not things that you
diagnose right away. It's things you have to really go and dig
INTERVIEWER: Now, you deal with small animals, large animals, uh...
STEPHENS: Everything, so far...
STEPHENS: Right. There's a lot - This practice is primarily dairy practice.
STEPHENS: And then, I'm doing all their small animal work,... and then, I'm
backing them up whenever they need it on dairy.
INTERVIEWER: But you're sort of on call too. I mean, someone can call in with a
problem of some sort, and uh...
PART III 2:07
INTERVIEWER: Animals, when they're in pain, uh... I suppose, can't communicate
STEPHENS: Sometimes the owners... don't observe the animal as much as...
well, as ... as they possibly could. So that if you ask them a
question, they will answer something and- that may not necessarily
be that way. So, basically, we have to - to really do a good physical
on the animal. And... you know, listen to the history, but not
take it verbatim.
INTERVIEWER: Uh-hmm. There seem to be a lot of... uh...of people that treat
their pets- uh...dogs and cats- almost as though they were child-
ren. Does that become a problem of some sort in dealing...with
them? I mean, I...I suppose you could have a hypochondriac-parent
attitude toward an animal.
STEPHENS: Well, you could have hypochondriac dogs too, as far as that
goes! Uh...I think pets are really nice for people, because some
people that, say, haven't had the... the best relationship with
their children- a dog will be totally devoted to them. And they'll
never have any problems with the dog. And the dog will really love
them, whereas, their...their...children might desert them. And
I think it's...it's great as far as mental health for people.
STEPHENS: Uhm. Sometimes it's difficult dealing with... with some people,
but... I- I think... I think it's nice that people love their
INTERVIEWER: But I've heard it said uh...
STEPHENS: The- It's funny when you... when you get into some fanatics. I
have to admit. There was one lady that...bought a coffin for her
dog, and for six months she...
INTERVIEWER: A coffin...?
STEPHENS: A coffin for her dog- it was a thousand-dollar coffin. And then for
six months, she slept on the floor with the dog. The dog was ha- was
in heart failure. And she - every... every - you know, the dog
couldn't go anywhere, so she just stayed with the dog all the time.
And finally, she decided it was time for the dog to...to die, and
so they had a little ser - uhm...service for it before the doctor-
The doctor had to go out to the house and euthanize the dog. They
had a little service first, and then they talked about the dog, and
what a nice dog it had been. And then he euthanized the dog. And
then they put it in the coffin, and then they buried it out in the
INTERVIEWER: ...it was a thousand dollars?
STEPHENS: Uh-hmm. There's things like that you hear. I mean, I- There's-
There are a few things like that where people are really fanatics.
PART IV 1:30
INTERVIEWER: What would you see as the most difficult thing about uh... prac-
ticing veterinary medicine?
STEPHENS: I think, keeping up with the material. Uh... I think it's easy
to...it's easy to let yourself lapse-lag behind. It's - It's got
to be - You've got to constantly push at yourself. When you come
home after a twelve-hour day of... of doing calls, and you...
you don't feel like sitting down and reading a journal- you feel
like doing something else. And I think that there's also- I haven't
really gotten this yet, but- the co- the idea of being on call all
STEPHENS: It's not like your life's really your own. You have to sort of de-
dicate it to...your job.
INTERVIEWER: Aren't there sometimes some uh...some dangers involved? I mean,
uh... an animal in pain, uh... could fight, and bite and so
forth- unlike humans.
STEPHENS: Right. As far as large animals go, I think that horses are almost
more dangerous than... than cattle- though a cow, if it... if
it kicks you, it can hurt you pretty badly. Uh... the horses are
unpredictable. There's some of them have been worked with daily -
some of them haven't been worked with for a couple months. And...
you just have to assess the situation when it arises. But, no,
there's a...there's a good chance you could get hurt...
STEPHENS : ...in a lot of ways.
INTERVIEWER: And what about a whole question of physical strength? Doesn't
it take a lot of...
STEPHENS : Well, everybody said that would be a problem - being a woman. But
uh...I...I don't see how a man can actually control a thousand-
pound horse! I mean, he's,...you know, even if he weighs two
hundred pounds, he still weighs a lot less than the horse. And he
can't - if that horse makes up its mind it's not going to do
something, it's not going to do it!
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T N I N E
A TV REPORTER
PART I 2:23
INTERVIEWER: Newspapers seem sort of impersonal...
INTERVIEWER: ...but radio and TV - there are personalities involved. Isn't
there...uh...a lot more possibility that - since there are per-
sonalities involved - that it will have a greater impact on
people - people's reactions...?
DONAHUE: Well, I think you have to first start with the understanding...
uh ,...that no person is unobjective. We're all striving to be
objective, but we have our own prejudice. It's build in. And so,
...uh...even the person who writes the story in the newspaper
DONAHUE: ...lets that bias come through in his pen. Of course, when we are
personally on camera,...uh...we're trying to stick pretty
closely to a script...
DONAHUE: ...that we have already written.
DONAHUE: But sometimes, perhaps in an ad lib,...uh - although we try to
avoid as much of that as possible - some of our...our prejudice
or bias will show,even though we're...we're striving not to let
INTERVIEWER: Uh...but when people read a newspaper article, it's kind of cold.
INTERVIEWER: There is no voice inflections and...
INTERVIEWER: ...feeling in the thing...
DONAHUE: Right,...that's true.
INTERVIEWER: It could be...it could be a real exciting story,...and all you
can do is put exclamation marks. But when you...
DONAHUE: I see that you're saying.
INTERVIEWER: ...see a person that...
DONAHUE: The raised eyebrows, or the -
INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Things come through....Isn't there a...
DONAHUE: ...question of sharpness -
INTERVIEWER: ...a real,...uh...I started to say, danger,...that the par-
ticular biases of uh...a person can come through more readily ?
DONAHUE: I think there is a - I think there is a danger. I think it's some-
thing you have to guard against...
DONAHUE: It would be wrong for that to happen. But, yes, I think what
you're saying is true - that in trying to interpret the words that
are on the script,...uh...I might...in my voice or in my...
uh...expression show some type of reaction to it. Uh...proba-
bly, would be more of a reaction than it would of an interpreta-
tion - although the voice...
DONAHUE: ...uh...implies an interpretation when you read any group of
DONAHUE: ...any sentences- you imply some interpretation. I guess the
idea is to make that sentence not so bland, but so- leave out
adjectives, leave out adverbs...
DONAHUE: ...so that...uh...you deal just with nouns and verbs, and in
that way, you...uh...keep it as straight as you possibly
PART II 1:26
INTERVIEWER: How do you see yourself,...uh...uh...primarily- other than
reporting the news? Uh...are you an entertainer?
DONAHUE: No. No, I don't think I'm an entertainer. I think, perhaps, the
sports man might be an entertainer of sort- although he has a
journalistic function too. I see myself as a public servant. Uh...
the same as...a policeman or a mayor might be...
DONAHUE: ...providing information to people that they need in their lives
to...to live their life, to make decisions and so forth.
INTERVIEWER: But you are conscious, of course,...when you go before the
cameras, that...that you're in a situation...
INTERVIEWER: ...uh...where...where- There must be people that...
that...are viewing you...
DONAHUE: Oh, sure...
INTERVIEWER: ...you,...people as...uh...someone-
DONAHUE: Because of your visibility, you become a...a...somewhat of a
celebrity in that sense, and...uh...I don't know- I try to play
that down, so that doesn't become a...uh...a thing with me.
DONAHUE: Because I think that's probably the biggest problem in our profes-
sion- the biggest temptation is to get a big head. And while you
need confidence in order to do you job- it's a...it's a high- pres-
sure job, so you need confidence- you get too much of that confi-
dence, and that begins to come across the tube...
DONAHUE: ...as you're kind of a know- it- all, or...uh...you think yourself
more important than you really should be. And I think that would
be dealt with by the viewer. After a while, they'll just turn you off.
They'll say, "I don't want to watch that cocky so- and- so any-
PART III 2:29
INTERVIEWER: Some...uh...newspapers,...I suppose...uh...some TV
stations, have had the reputation for reporting...uh...for
DONAHUE: Uh-huh. That's true.
DONAHUE: There are several markets in the country where...there are
stations that deal primarily with crime news...
DONAHUE: ...and news of a violent nature. I think they're shoved into
that...uh...suit, perhaps, by the programming that wraps
around them...uh.... If they are on, let's say, at eleven o'clock,
and the show from ten to eleven- as is...uh...usually the
DONAHUE: ...not usually, but often the case- is a crime or detective-type
DONAHUE: ...the viewer has been given an appetite for violence. He's been
DONAHUE: ...the news begins to expect violence.
INTERVIEWER: He expects a lot of action on a...on a-
DONAHUE: Right. And so...uh...some of the services that...uh...make
recommendations- national syndicated services- that make rec-
ommendations to local stations say that you should begin with a
DONAHUE: ...it would even be that much better, they say, if you would begin
with a visual that involves some kind of criminal activity-
DONAHUE: ...some...something that will grab the people's attention and
hold them. And don't start, they would say, with something that's
political or that's...uh...a little bit involved, because their
minds are not ready to grasp that now-
INTERVIEWER: Sort or a...a bridge of some sort...
DONAHUE: That's a big struggle...a big conflict, that's going on in our
industry right now- whether news people should listen to
those...uh...so- called...uh...experts on public...
DONAHUE: ...appetites, on public needs...
INTERVIEWER: What constitutes...uh...a news...uh...worthy-
DONAHUE: I think...uh...when you get down to it, basically, news involves
the actions, the words and the products of people. I think it's...
those three would be all inclusive, and of course,...uh...in
television news, we're essentially concerned with...uh...one,
the actions words and products of people that would affect the
DONAHUE: ...of viewers or listens- in other words, would have a mass
appeal. Number two, that are truly news - in the sense that they
have happened within, oh ,say, the last twenty-four hours. You
know, not something that happened...
DONAHUE: ...a month ago, but something that happened today. So, that
would be, I guess, my definition of...of news...
INTERVIEWER: That pretty well wraps up a lot of things though, doesn't it ?
DONAHUE: Oh, yeah...
INTERVIEWER: And the whole problem of deciding what's...uh...
INTERVIEWER: ...what's newsworthly,...
DONAHUE: There are a lot -
DONAHUE: That's right...
INTERVIEWER: One of the newspapers...uh...has had that motto - "all the
news that's fit to print."
DONAHUE: And the NEW YORK TIMES isn't big enough to...to include all the
news that's fit to print ! So, they have...
INTERVIEWER: Not quite...!
DONAHUE: ...to leave some out...!
PART IV ____
INTERVIEWER: Well, what is it that's mainly attractive to you about your work ?
DONAHUE: Well, there is a phychic reward in the sense of...uh...being able
to see your product...
INTERVIEWER: We were just...
INTERVIEWER: ...talking about that.
DONAHUE: Sure, at the end of a show, to look back and say, "We got through
INTERVIEWER: That's sort of a "show biz..." uh...
DONAHUE: Uh - huh...
INTERVIEWER: ...kind of...uh...
DONAHUE: I think so...
INTERVIEWER: ...thing, isn't it...?
DONAHUE: Yeah, I think so.
INTERVIEWER: You have something to produce, uh...and you produce it.
DONAHUE: You have an audience, in a sense - you were alluding to that
INTERVIEWER: Uh - huh.
DONAHUE: ...although ours is an information function, it still...if...
We...we - At the end, we judge - did we inform our audi-
ence...? Uh...or did we...uh...leave out some things they
should have known - and do we feel badly about that...? So,
there's the phychic...uh...reward. There's the sense of being
close to newsmakers - to the people...uh...where the
INTERVIEWER: Where the action is...
DONAHUE: ...so to speak...Uh...that is exciting, and I enjoy that part of
the business. I like working under...under deadlines - under
pressure- because I think you probably produce more, and you
produce a higher quality of work when you're under pressure-
INTERVIEWER: Which means for you, a daily...a daily deadline ot two...
DONAHUE: Right. And so I enjoy that part of my job. Uh...there's a cer-
tain- on television journalism, there - Again - guess this would
be a phychic reward- there's certain amount of...of feeling of
accomplishment...uh when people will come up to you...
uh...and say, "gee ,we think you're doing a good job", and...
DONAHUE: ...that kind of feedback that you get, that other people would
not get in their work. I enjoy that. Of course, we also get some
negative feedback sometime...
DONAHUE: ...and you become a little sensitive about that. But also,
perhaps, is of benefit because we learn from our mistakes. If a guy
makes a mistake in his office downtown, someone that he's never
heard of out in other part of town doesn't come and...
INTERVIEWER: Doesn't tell him about it...
DONAHUE: ...tell him, you know, and critique him. And so he, perhaps,
doesn't get better in that sense. Uh....In the upper echelons of
our profession,...uh...the network level- the rewards
monetarily are very good-
INTERVIEWER: The national...uh...
DONAHUE: Yes. Uh....They would make...uh...good money. Of course,
there again, you'd trade out some things- perhaps on the roar a
lot, not much time with the family, and so forth.But...uh...
I....I just like...uh...being, I guess, where the action is,
and I just like this...having - guess part of it is having so-
mething- Maybe it's the old gossip...over-the-fence gossip kind
of need that some of us have.Having some information that...
that the other person doesn't have that I can...
INTERVIEWER: ...to hand out...yeah...
DONAHUE: ...share with them, and I- That's kind of neat, I guess. We get
bulletins occasionally, and we'll interrupt and say - essentia-
lly what you're saying is - "Gee, I just found out that...uh...
DONAHUE: ...was captured that they've been looked for a week, and I
wanted to tell you about it..."
INTERVIEWER: More sophisticated form-
DONAHUE: That's right. That's exciting too - knowing something that the
other person doesn't know, and sharing it with him.
T A P E S C R I P T : U N I T T E N
A SUCCESSFUL TEACHER
PART I 2:46
INTERVIEWER: How do you feel at the end of the teaching day? You finished
your last class just a few minutes ago...
MILLER: Well, usually, I'm...fairly, I think the...expression is,
"burnt out", I think, is...
INTERVIEWER: "Burnt out"...
MILLER: ...what they use these days...
MILLER: Pretty tired...
INTERVIEWER: In...uh...butgenerally exhilarated, or...or...uh..?
MILLER: Well, you know, I think it...I think it depends. It would be
nice to say that were true every day, you know Д and you
have good days and...and bad days. But I think, generally,
as soon as that last bell rings and the kids go out, there's...
there's kind of a...a retrospective period...
MILLER: ...I guess, when you kind of review what happened and, you
MILLER: ...straighten things up and run through incidents of the day Д
and what went well and what didn't,...and that kind of thing...
INTERVIEWER: Are there some days when you feel things have gone particularly
MILLER: Oh, yeah. Yeah, there are some days when you just...uh...you
know, literally just kind of flying high...
MILLER: ...because something really exciting happened. And it, you
know, could be s really little thing, you know. It can be,
you know, some student who comes in...
MILLER: ...and he...
INTERVIEWER: Some little encouragement or...?
MILLER: Well, like, I...I have this...this one boy in class who was
very slow. And he plays games something, and he doesn't want
to do his work, you know.
MILLER: But he's really a good kid. He's had a lot of trouble in
school Д discipline kinds of things Д and he's really trying
harder. And, as I told you, the kids are doing these projects
on Indians, and he's Д they've been in the library now for
two days Д and he hasn't come up with a...uh...with
project yet. And so Д.
INTERVIEWER: What Д They're supposed to...they...they actually decide on a
MILLER: Yes. They have to identify their own, and then I help them
limit, you know, the topic if it needs...
MILLER: ...or...or whatever. And...uh...anyway, so he had gone down
to the library earlier today because he knew I was going to be
very upset with him if he didn't have something by today,
because he wasted his period yesterday.
MILLER: And...uh...he asked another teacher in the library for some
help, and he said,...uh...the way he put it, he said...uh -
Well, you have to know the kid to understand exactly.
MILLER: But he said,...uh...uh..."Mr.Sullivan,..." this was the
other teacher - he says, "Tell me a good Indian...." And what
he meant was...
INTERVIEWER: ...to look up...
MILLER: "...tell me somebody good..."
INTERVIEWER: Tell me somebody to look up...
MILLER: ...you know, that would be - And so the other teacher who's
involved in this project too - he said....uh...uh..."Well,
the only good Indian I know is a dead Indian,..." which is a
quote that we do in class. Uh...and we talk about what
attitudes that expresses on the part of the pioneer.
MILLER: But - And anyway, he - this boy - didn't understand that - it
was a little bit too subtle for him...
MILLER: ...you know. He said, "Well, you'd better not let Mrs. Miller
MILLER: ...about that. She'll be very mad, because she says that's
prejudice,..." you know...
INTERVIEWER: ...came across anyway...!
MILLER: He didn't understand the implication...
MILLER: ...and that it was a joke, you know. But things like that will
happen that, you know,...uh...they're amusing things, and
the good things.
MILLER: And that he knows, for example, just the fact that he knew that
my expectations were such that he'd better have something,...
MILLER: ...the effort to go to the library, you know. That's...that's
not anything tremendous...
MILLER: ...but for him, that's significant...
INTERVIEWER: It's triu -
MILLER: ...part of the day.
INTERVIEWER: It's a...it's a triumph...
INTERVIEWER: ...for the time...
PART II 2:35
INTERVIEWER: It's almost...uh...that there has been a feeling or an intent -
much like a sales pitch - that it's all fun...
INTERVIEWER: ...and sort of...
MILLER: That's right! That's right...
INTERVIEWER: ...minimize that there's any...uh...laboring...
MILLER: Work involved! That's right! That's right. And...and the kids,
you know - You take that kind of an attitude, plus what they get
on TV, you know, ant it's...and - which is, to me...is...a...
a medium that teaches you to be passive. And you sit back and
watch these things, and you expect to be entertained. And they
bring those attitudes in the classroom, you know. And they sit
down in the chair and, literally, if you're not as good as "Bat-
MILLER: ...you might as well hang it up!
INTERVIEWER: You're competing with...uh -
MILLER: You are! You're compete - you're competing with all that sound
and light and motion and music - all combined into one.
MILLER: And if, you know, if you can't beat that, you don't stand chance.
You're almost forced into that role...
INTERVIEWER: ...being compared with a sort of commercial program on televi-
MILLER: That's right! That's right...
INTERVIEWER: To a certain extent, educational...
MILLER: That's right...
INTERVIEWER: ...television, I suppose, or -
MILLER: Well, and too, you know, you show...uh - One of the classes that
I teach is a class on minorities, you know. And we go on and on
about - For example, we do one unit on...on black americans.
And we talk about civil rights, and we talk about Martin Luther
King, and we talk about the Emancipation Proclamation and all
this good information - much of which the kids don't know, and
so it's intrinsically interesting because it's new...
MILLER: But, you know, they never get as excited, and ,you know, this is
just terrible - I even hate to tell you - They never get as excited as
when we show the film of uh...the Montgomery bus boycotts
MILLER: ...in...in...Selma, Alabama, when they turned the dogs and
MILLER: ...on the black demonstrators. And the dogs are tearing up these
INTERVIEWER: black people - I mean, I'm not kidding you, they literally, you
know, come out of their chair and make noises! You know, like,
"Oh, yeah! Yeah!" you know.
INTERVIEWER: And that's sick! Or like the film that we show on...uh...on the
Indians. It's about buffalo hunting, and their way of life before
the pioneer came and what happened to that civilization. The best
part of the film - it's not the...the hunting technique, or how
they used all parts of the animal or were very ecologically minded.
What is it? It's when they stampede a whole herd...
MILLER: ...of buffalo off the cliff - and that was one of their
techniques - and killed, you know, four or five hundred at a time!
MILLER: And the - all that blood and gore, and the buffalo screaming...
INTERVIEWER: That's enough excitement at that stage of the game...
MILLER: That's great...! That's the high point of the film...!
INTERVIEWER: But...but these are films that are chosen...
MILLER: But that's what stands out in their minds! That's the high point of
it, you know,..."Boy, you ought to wait until you see this
film...! You won't believe all the buffalo...!
MILLER: ...you know. And you don't know, of course, how much of the
rest of it they retain. I'm sure something. But the fact they
they .. they audibly react, and...and visibly react to that - to
me, it's just so sad...
MILLER: ...I just...
MILLER: ...every time it happens - and it happens consistently every year
we do it!
INTERVIEWER: Well, they're...they're conditioned...
PART III 1:39
INTERVIEWER: What do you think ...uh...some of the most difficult things are
MILLER: Oh, I think...well, for me, it's having so many students and
knowing that there are so many of them that...that you're not
doing anything for, you know. And I...I mean that very...
INTERVIEWER: Sort of...
INTERVIEWER: not enough of you to go around...!
MILLER: Exactly. You know, you come in your classroom,
and there's five minutes between periods, you know, and they're
like - you know, it's not unusual to have ten kids at your desk,
right? You know, now these aren't - you know, like adults would
do, they'd wait patiently - I mean they're all talking at one time
MILLER: ...and pulling on your clothing, and...and you know, all that
kind of thing...
INTERVIEWER: There's just no way of dealing with that...
MILLER: And...and...and in the meantime, so you try to take care of
that which is, you know, kind of a tempestuous thing...
MILLER: ...and then here's a kid back in the corner who sits in your class
and never opens his mouth - who probaby needs you the most,
right ? And he gets the least.
INTERVIEWER: The least vocal...
MILLER: Okay, there's that kind of kid. And then there's the really bright
kid who doesn't get much of your time either,you know. If you
look at it realistically, it's the kids who have trouble and who
cause problems in class who get ninety percent of your attention.!
MILLER: And the kid who doesn't say anything, or one who's very bright,
gets the least amount of your attention...
MILLER: ...because he demands the least amount.
MILLER: And that...you know, that's very discouraging sometimes when
you stop and look at who...who you talk to. Or at the end of a
period where, you know, you forget to take the roll, for
example - this happens sometimes - You forget to take the roll,
and then you remember as the kids go out that you didn't take it,
and you go back to do it...
INTERVIEWER: If you remember who...
MILLER: ...as of them. And you can't remember if this kid was in your class
MILLER: That's scary to me! That's really...that's frightening. And it's...
uh...you know, how do you combat that ?
PART IV 2:42
INTERVIEWER: Do you think anybody can be trained to be a teacher...?
INTERVIEWER: Or do you think...
MILLER: No, I don't. I think it's a...
INTERVIEWER: ...you have to be a born...
MILLER: ...chemical thing...
INTERVIEWER: ...a born thing, or...
MILLER: Well, I think there are probably some people that are marginal
that can be adequate teachers, but I think the really good
teachers-It's kind of a...I think it's a gift that you have. I
mean.I-There are...there are teachers that I know that I...swear
if somebody sat down with them every day and worked with them
on materials, and technique and approach to kids, it would never
work. It would never work. They just don't have that - whatever it
is - that internal kind of thing.
INTERVIEWER: Can you define any of that? I mean...
INTERVIEWER: What sort of specific uh - Are there certain personality...
MILLER: Well, I think you...you...I think you have to be-No, I can't
even say that...! My...in my value judgment, okay...? My bias
is that the best teachers are people that are extroverted, okay?
MILLER: ...that are fairly sensitive people...
MILLER: Uh...but not pushy, loud - mouth gregarious...
MILLER: ...just...uh...like people, but still sensitive. In other words,
they're not so full of their own energies that are outgoing...
MILLER: ...that they're not paying attention to what's going on. So, it's
kind of a combination there...Uh...but I think most of
them - The best teachers I know are kind of extroverted people,
and they really like kids...!
MILLER: But, by the same token, I know some teachers who really care
about doing a good job, and want those kids to like them and want
to do well...!
MILLER: And if...if you gave them, you know - I don't know. I can't even
think of a good analogy - it would fall flat. They just don't have it.
They just don't have it. And it's...and it's sad when you see that
happening, because they - I mean, there's some teachers who
don't care, you know - they're just in it now because they've been
in it so long and it's too late to move out,...and...
MILLER: Unfortunately, there are those...But there are some teachers
who...who do care...!
INTERVIEWER: Well, aren't there some very definable management skills involved
in teaching that often are neglected in teacher training, maybe? I
MILLER: I don't know how you train somebody to do that. You have - To
be a good teacher, I think you have to have a high tolerance level
for confusion - I think you have...
MILLER: ...to have that when you've got thirty kids...
INTERVIEWER: It's built in...
MILLER: You have to have that. You have to be patient uh...you have to
be a patient person, and I,...you know, I know it just sounds
totally inadequate, but I don't know how to put my...my finger
on it. It just...
INTERVIEWER: But you do believe it is uh - there is a gift of some sort,
or there is something...
MILLER: Yeah, I do.
INTERVIEWER: ...a magic you've referred to...
MILLER: That's right, I do. I don't know if it lasts...I mean, I don't
know if it comes with the person and it's there forever,...you know.
I don't know.